Curse

Family Draconis · Jun 27, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I understaind your pain, my friend. I especially have that problem when changing secondary professions. I have to buy a skill that's been unlocked and purchased, sometimes several times over, even though it's been done before. But like the second post states, it's not that difficult to find a skill trainer that has the skill you want. And, of course, there's always the skill trainer in the Ember Light Camp (assuming you're on Tyria) who can train every non-elite skill.

In truth, having to go through the game with a limited amount of skills makes it more challenging as well. It wouldn't be as fun if you could just go through the game with the perfect build every single time you play through. It makes you think a little bit more about your build and how to make it better. You never really know when you're going to discover a skill that you had all along but never knew you loved so much. I've done it a few times myself just recently even.

I agree that it can get a bit frustrating to have to re-train all of your skills every time, but like i said before, it makes the game more challenging and, in my opinion, more fun.

Nevin · Jun 27, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Great lets water down RP even more... What other MMO does this? I think some GW players are getting a little too spoiled with ease of playing GW. Not to mention it doesn't make RP sense at all to do this. My character "Tom McBoB" is a master of all the professions, thus my next character "Canzulo Snapperpants" will be just as good as he is!

The RP in Guild Wars isn't that great, I'm sure most of you could agree most MMO's have much more lush storylines and what not. But no need to make it any easier.

The milk shake · Jun 27, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

that would be awesome, i wouldnt have to waste my time to cap eviscerate again and i could start a lv1 with hundred blades

Cirian · Jun 27, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Great lets water down RP even more... What other MMO does this? I think some GW players are getting a little too spoiled with ease of playing GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Guild Wars has added great features to cut out mindless activities. Map Travel and the modifying attributes in town are two great examples. I can still remember playing DAoC and spending maybe 20 minutes just travelling to get somewhere, or having to go on a long raid for a respec stone if I wanted to change my stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWars.com

Mike O'Brien, the creator and architect of Battle.net, points out "Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."

It's statements like Mike's that brought me to Guild Wars from the DAoC grindfest that finally broke me after 2 and a half years of love/hate. GW has this great attitude of rewarding achievements, but as the game expands I can see my achievements being locked in the cupboard, as if they never happened. I happen to have a long list of achievements, so it's not like I can repeat them in a week like I used to.

edit: DAoC = Dark Age of Camelot, for those who didn't know

Cirian · Jun 27, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Not to mention it doesn't make RP sense at all to do this. My character "Tom McBoB" is a master of all the professions, thus my next character "Canzulo Snapperpants" will be just as good as he is!

I was thinking about this over a cup of tea, and I realised that what you're saying is really no different from the way your PvE characters are already related.

For a start, Canzulo Snapperpants will be in the same guild as Tom McBob. Perhaps they are best friends? He will also have the same Luxon/Kurzick faction; maybe Tom put a good word in? He might even be a fearsome Gladiator or Hero thanks to some of Tom and his friends' escapades in the PvP arenas.

Most importantly, Tom and Canzulo will always be joined at the hip because they are played by you.

Lets say Canzulo got access to all your previously hard-earned skills when he Ascended (my favourite point for this to happen, not L1). Can you think of anything really really bad that could happen, or would it simply be what I want it to be... a convenience?

edit: I've added some points from the feedback to my original post. Good stuff.

mqstout · Jun 27, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

"What other MMO does this?"
What other MMO encourages constant character rebuilding and rerolling?

Let's get more discussion. I'd really like to see what people have to say on this. I just bought Arcane Echo last night for the fourth time (I like X/MEs, I admit) It'd be nice to see how many possible solutions we could have to the problem. A hefty discount (but still requiring the skill points) on purchasing skills already unlocked for your account seems like it's a good compromise. I also don't have a problem with waiting until a character is level 20 until they become available.

Gorebrex · Jun 27, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Been awhile(Ive been catching up on my other games)! I was thinkng, after youve ascended a character, why dont they just let you start your next on with ALL skills, all the max items(armor, weapons, ect.), and like 2k plat? That way you wont have to work for anything, and do whatever yo want right off the bat(sarcasm).

Age · Jun 27, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

What about UAS for ascended char. with the same name as soon as they do thier 2nd 15 attribute quest given by Vanyi they see another NPC for their UAS.You would have to have 200 attribute points for this to happen.

xiao1985 · Jun 27, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

unsigned... normal skills u unlocked maybe purhcased from skill trainer, elite skills are only avaliable after ascension for a reason

Pompeyfan · Jun 27, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? He suggests that any skills/elites you've already unlocked become available AFTER you ascend or complete the Nahpul Quarter mission ie. when you're already L20 so won't have access to the lower arenas anyway.

IMO I think it's a good idea - I'm pissed off with having to re-cap elites I've already capped, more so as the bosses that have them don't always spawn so you could have to do an area 4 or 5 times before striking lucky. If PvP'ers get them for all charactewrs once unlocked, so should PvE'ers - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

Gorebrex · Jun 27, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? He suggests that any skills/elites you've already unlocked become available AFTER you ascend or complete the Nahpul Quarter mission ie. when you're already L20 so won't have access to the lower arenas anyway.

IMO I think it's a good idea - I'm pissed off with having to re-cap elites I've already capped, more so as the bosses that have them don't always spawn so you could have to do an area 4 or 5 times before striking lucky. If PvP'ers get them for all charactewrs once unlocked, so should PvE'ers - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

Yes, I DID read it, but what do you mean by "properly"?
Oh noes! Just like any new character? Thats awful! /sarcasm off Dont say "Gimme gimme gimme!! I already did it once, why do I have to do it again?" Because its a NEW CHARACTER! Thats why!
PLEASE tell me why that makes any sense! Youre basically saying PvE and PvP should be virtually identical, and I a VERY much disagree with that. Theyre different for a reason, and I dont see one to make them more similar.

bilateralrope · Jun 27, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

"What other MMO does this?"
What other MMO encourages constant character rebuilding and rerolling?

Guild wars doesn't encourage the constant rerolling of PvE characters, just PvP characters.

Loviatar · Jun 27, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

no.

someone rerolls a character for a gvg in 10 minutes and you want them to get enough faction for the elite they need?

pvp are throw away characters and pve are keepers so deal with it.

Cirian · Jun 28, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I like challenges. I've done things like Protector of Tyria and even Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer.

One of the things I'd like to do as a challenge is collect every skill, and play every class. How many skills are there now? 100 for the Chapter 1 classes and 75 for the Chapter 2 classes? Around 750 total across 8 classes?

When Chapter 3 comes out, I'd also like to play those classes and collect all those new skills. I'm guessing the 8 old classes will get new 25 skills each, and (I assume) the 2 new classes will have 75 each. Around 350 new skills total at a guess.

As you can imagine, bagging around 1,100 skills once is going to keep me busy! D'you think, if I roll a Chapter 3 character I could get access to 1,100 skills by buying them at a discounted price, assuming I had 1,100 skill points lying around? Nope, me neither! But I aspire to having all those skills... maybe I'm mad, but I like collecting

Some people are suggesting I want Easy Mode here, but does playing every class and collecting every skill in the game sound lazy? And I don't just mean "unlocked", I mean to have the complete set accessable on a PvE character eventually.

It's probably doable on a Chapter 1 character with an insane amount of exp, but that means we can't play other classes without losing access to all those skills. How many maxed Skill Hunters would make a Chapter 3 class their main if they had to start over? Right now my Chapter 2 characters are little more than toys because of this. I'll find it even harder to take my Chapter 3 characters seriously.

At the moment I might be able to collect all the skills in the game over a handfull of PvE characters, but they'd be all fragmented and not pooled together. I'd prefer to collect most Chapter 3 skills on Chapter 3 classes, Chapter 4 skills on Chapter 4 classes and so on... The bigger the game gets the more the skills will be spread around characters, and I want to pool them all together. You know, use them. All of them!

I'm ambitious!

Gorebrex · Jun 28, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I like challenges. I've done things like Protector of Tyria and even Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer.

One of the things I'd like to do as a challenge is collect every skill, and play every class. How many skills are there now? 100 for the Chapter 1 classes and 75 for the Chapter 2 classes? Around 750 total across 8 classes?

When Chapter 3 comes out, I'd also like to play those classes and collect all those new skills. I'm guessing the 8 old classes will get new 25 skills each, and (I assume) the 2 new classes will have 75 each. Around 350 new skills total at a guess.

As you can imagine, bagging around 1,100 skills once is going to keep me busy! D'you think, if I roll a Chapter 3 character I could get access to 1,100 skills by buying them at a discounted price, assuming I had 1,100 skill points lying around? Nope, me neither! But I aspire to having all those skills... maybe I'm mad, but I like collecting

Some people are suggesting I want Easy Mode here, but does playing every class and collecting every skill in the game sound lazy? And I don't just mean "unlocked", I mean to have the complete set accessable on a PvE character eventually.

It's probably doable on a Chapter 1 character with an insane amount of exp, but that means we can't play other classes without losing access to all those skills. How many maxed Skill Hunters would make a Chapter 3 class their main if they had to start over? Right now my Chapter 2 characters are little more than toys because of this. I'll find it even harder to take my Chapter 3 characters seriously.

At the moment I might be able to collect all the skills in the game over a handfull of PvE characters, but they'd be all fragmented and not pooled together. I'd prefer to collect most Chapter 3 skills on Chapter 3 classes, Chapter 4 skills on Chapter 4 classes and so on... The bigger the game gets the more the skills will be spread around characters, and I want to pool them all together. You know, use them. All of them!

I'm ambitious!

All well and good, but how would Chapter 1 mobs be able to deal with Chapter 3 or 4 skills? Or Chapter 2 ones? They weren't designed to cope with those, and I think it would be unbalanced too much(a LITTLE unbalanced is ok

).

Cirian · Jun 28, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

All well and good, but how would Chapter 1 mobs be able to deal with Chapter 3 or 4 skills? Or Chapter 2 ones? They weren't designed to cope with those, and I think it would be unbalanced too much(a LITTLE unbalanced is ok

).

You can already take Chapter 2 classes over to Tyria if you have a merged account like I do. I expect it will be the same with Chapters 3 and 4.

It's also worth remembering that even with many 100's of collected skills, you can only take 8 on your bar

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

Guild wars doesn't encourage the constant rerolling of PvE characters, just PvP characters.

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.

I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

When a new character is rolled, I don't fear replacing equipment. Material possessions from old characters are easily transferred except for customised weapons and armour, and these are trivial to replace with effective crafter or collector gear.

No, the real reason most people cling to their Chapter 1 characters instead of taking their Chapter 2 or 3 characters seriously is the investment in skills, which is what makes them powerful. I am guilty of clinging to my 2.1 million experience necromancer for this very reason. It's a sort of emotional blackmail that stops people wanting to roll another character, and that is going to backfire if we are expected to roll new classes that will never see the benefits of our past efforts.

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

It's not like if someone regains all their old skills eventually, there won't be enough new content to explore or skills to collect. The whole point of regaining your old skills is so you don't have to worry about losing them to enjoy new content and classes.

Gorebrex · Jun 30, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

You can already take Chapter 2 classes over to Tyria if you have a merged account like I do. I expect it will be the same with Chapters 3 and 4.
It's also worth remembering that even with many 100's of collected skills, you can only take 8 on your bar

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.
I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

When a new character is rolled, I don't fear replacing equipment. Material possessions from old characters are easily transferred except for customised weapons and armour, and these are trivial to replace with effective crafter or collector gear.

No, the real reason most people cling to their Chapter 1 characters instead of taking their Chapter 2 or 3 characters seriously is the investment in skills, which is what makes them powerful. I am guilty of clinging to my 2.1 million experience necromancer for this very reason. It's a sort of emotional blackmail that stops people wanting to roll another character, and that is going to backfire if we are expected to roll new classes that will never see the benefits of our past efforts.

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

It's not like if someone regains all their old skills eventually, there won't be enough new content to explore or skills to collect. The whole point of regaining your old skills is so you don't have to worry about losing them to enjoy new content and classes.

So why that a good thing? Like I said, the Capter 1 mobarent equipped(to my best knowledge) to fight against Chapter 2 skills.
Having an ascended Necro, and a Warrior almost there, Im pretty sure Ive heard somewhere that you can only use 8 skills at once... : P : D
(From NC : "WOOOT! You guys now have 24 types of characters to choose from! Oh yeah, you only get 8 slots though, and only 25 slots in iinv - LOLOL

Navaros · Jun 30, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Original poster is right: there is no reason why PVE characters should have to again acquire skills that the player has already unlocked on other PVE characters. That is Grind with a capital G. It's not fun, and it's not supposed to be what the game is about. Original poster's idea would make rolling new characters a lot more fun, as opposed to agonizing when one think's of all the skills he'd have to grind to get again even though they have already been acquired on another character.

Anything that reduces grind and makes the game more fun is worth putting in.

/signed

bilateralrope · Jun 30, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.

I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

What loss of power ?
We are keeping your old characters, so we lose nothing.

Quote:

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

Except the strength of the new characters comes from the skills of their class, being the completly new skills. Not the skills of their secondary class. So your assassin lacks minion summoning skills that your necromancer has. But you can't use them well anyway, so I see no loss. Sure there are a few builds that make heavy use of secondary class skills (like ritualist minion bombing), but that only requires you to buy a few skills. The large majority of those skills are not going to be useful, so will remain unused.

Cirian · Jun 30, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

What loss of power ?
We are keeping your old characters, so we lose nothing.

Except the strength of the new characters comes from the skills of their class, being the completly new skills. Not the skills of their secondary class. So your assassin lacks minion summoning skills that your necromancer has. But you can't use them well anyway, so I see no loss. Sure there are a few builds that make heavy use of secondary class skills (like ritualist minion bombing), but that only requires you to buy a few skills. The large majority of those skills are not going to be useful, so will remain unused.

The system is radically more powerful than you make out. I'm a build maker, and that means skills are my currency. I don't like looking up a cookie cutter build on a forum, I want to find it myself. I've built so many effective builds out of the secondaries on my necromancer, ranger, warrior and mesmer it makes my head spin.

The system has the potential to be so open to experimentation it's unreal, and that's where my fun is. That's where I get to flex my intelligence and discover something that makes playing so addictive. If a new expansion comes out and I roll a new class, can't you see it takes too long to recover 100s of previously aquired skills to fully experiment?

That's such an unnecessary barrier to enjoyment, and I see some people are agreeing with me. Some people are happy just using builds, but those like myself want to find them